There we go

killacross
Posts: 1683
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Re: There we go

Post by killacross »

I'm glad to see you struggle with ignoring reality. You shift back and forth calling her -- "he/him" and "she/her".

...Makes me laugh

It's a woman. Just like a breast/ovarian cancer survivor is still a woman -- even after those organs are removed. Cancel me if you must.
Digital Masta
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 am I'm glad to see you struggle with ignoring reality. You shift back and forth calling her -- "he/him" and "she/her".

...Makes me laugh

It's a woman. Just like a breast/ovarian cancer survivor is still a woman -- even after those organs are removed. Cancel me if you must.
I actually originally wrote it all as she/her and then went back and thought I'd be nice.
San Goku
Posts: 1979
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:41 am

Re: There we go

Post by San Goku »

killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 am I'm glad to see you struggle with ignoring reality. You shift back and forth calling her -- "he/him" and "she/her".

...Makes me laugh

It's a woman. Just like a breast/ovarian cancer survivor is still a woman -- even after those organs are removed. Cancel me if you must.
It annoying seeing that he/his and she/her crap in brackets beside people's names on LinkedIn lol
Digital Masta
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Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

Hollywood erases yet ANOTHER redhead character

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie ... e-4174678/


I mean...her name is literally Red Sonja. She's very white...and redheaded. Also the Hollywood obsession with half black actresses (and actors) is still going strong. We want them to be black...but not too black.
killacross
Posts: 1683
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Location: NC, USA

Re: There we go

Post by killacross »

Digital Masta wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:30 am Hollywood erases yet ANOTHER redhead character
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie ... e-4174678/
I mean...her name is literally Red Sonja. She's very white...and redheaded. Also the Hollywood obsession with half black actresses (and actors) is still going strong. We want them to be black...but not too black.
I would cast her in a feature length movie with Rashida Jones, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Tracee Ellis Ross, Zendaya, Meghan Markle...and for fun...I'll throw in Halsey

I could go on
San Goku wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:42 am It annoying seeing that he/his and she/her crap in brackets beside people's names on LinkedIn lol
my company actually encourages it in our emails. We have several types of Employee Inclusion Groups

...it's funny because people "out themselves" via their email signatures. I'm just a bigot. Luckily 99% of my dept doesn't participate either
xandorxerxes
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:43 pm

Re: There we go

Post by xandorxerxes »

Y'all actually making me do this reading, damnit. Super-short not-in-depth version:

- The number of trans athletes who win is small
- Trans men athletes have won competitions
- There are already proposals to stop doing gendered sports in general and make it more like fighting where you are limited to competing against people of similar builds.
- Trans people are dying of suicide at a much higher rate (5:3)
- Kids aren't transitioned, they're put on puberty body blockers that delay the physical effects of puberty until they're more capable of making informed decisions (only long-term negative side effect identified in what I read was that it can make it harder for some biological men to surgically transition to women).
- Many people think trans people are just mentally ill, ergo they think trans people shouldn't exist.
killacross
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Re: There we go

Post by killacross »

They are mentally ill..
... That's why their suicide rate is staggeringly higher than almost if not all other groups

It was only like <5 yrs ago it was socially acceptable to say it out loud
San Goku
Posts: 1979
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:41 am

Re: There we go

Post by San Goku »

killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:28 pm
Digital Masta wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:30 am Hollywood erases yet ANOTHER redhead character
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie ... e-4174678/
I mean...her name is literally Red Sonja. She's very white...and redheaded. Also the Hollywood obsession with half black actresses (and actors) is still going strong. We want them to be black...but not too black.
I would cast her in a feature length movie with Rashida Jones, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Tracee Ellis Ross, Zendaya, Meghan Markle...and for fun...I'll throw in Halsey

I could go on
San Goku wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:42 am It annoying seeing that he/his and she/her crap in brackets beside people's names on LinkedIn lol
my company actually encourages it in our emails. We have several types of Employee Inclusion Groups

...it's funny because people "out themselves" via their email signatures. I'm just a bigot. Luckily 99% of my dept doesn't participate either
Ah yes Hollywood, should we be surprised about the black but not too black/dark.

We haven't got there at my company yet.
killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:36 pm They are mentally ill..
... That's why their suicide rate is staggeringly higher than almost if not all other groups

It was only like <5 yrs ago it was socially acceptable to say it out loud
Digital Masta
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

xandorxerxes wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:43 pm Y'all actually making me do this reading, damnit. Super-short not-in-depth version:

- The number of trans athletes who win is small
That's also because the amount of trans athletes is very small but that's not the point. The point is that women deserve to have their own space to compete where they can have all the benefits of being able to compete at a high level in an environment that is made for them and them alone.
- Trans men athletes have won competitions
1. In what competition? Like fishing? (I have no idea if fishing is gendered)

2. 7' Chinese men exist, that doesn't change the fact that the average Chinese male is 5'7''.

But hey, when your daughter has her championship stolen from her because she got 2nd place in a competition where she would've gotten 1st had a boy not been competing with girls you can explain all this to her.

What is this thing now where we just erase the wants and needs of women but more than that where we start organizing society based on the wants and needs of the extreme outliers? That's not how society is organized in any aspect.
- There are already proposals to stop doing gendered sports in general and make it more like fighting where you are limited to competing against people of similar builds.
And that is a terrible idea.
- Trans people are dying of suicide at a much higher rate (5:3)
And guess what? Transitioning doesn't help that statistic. The rate isn't affected if they transition or not. It's almost as if there is something else going on with them mentally. Apparently, slaves during slavery and people in the Holocaust had significantly lower rates of suicide meaning a group of people that were treated like property and a group of people that were literally being eradicated from existence killed themselves at lower rates. So it can't because "people treated me mean because I'm trans," or "I didn't get the play sports with the girls", that the suicide rate is so high.
- Kids aren't transitioned, they're put on puberty body blockers that delay the physical effects of puberty until they're more capable of making informed decisions (only long-term negative side effect identified in what I read was that it can make it harder for some biological men to surgically transition to women).
That's semantic BS. Putting kids on puberty blockers, forcing parents to use the gender the child prefers, school systems undermining parents to do so is all part of the transitioning process, and it is wrong. Children are not your subjects for your social experiments.
- Many people think trans people are just mentally ill, ergo they think trans people shouldn't exist.

Image

Tell that to Iceland, the country that basically eradicated Down Syndrome because they aborted all the babies.

There are a plethora of mental illnesses that exist in this world. Doesn't mean that the person who suffers from it shouldn't exist. It just means they exist with a mental illness and need treatment. Some need more treatment than others.

You are arguing that a man thinking he's a woman or vice versa isn't a mental illness. That's literally the embodiment of a mental illness.
Last edited by Digital Masta on Fri May 07, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Cane_The9lives
Posts: 254
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Re: There we go

Post by Cane_The9lives »

killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:36 pm They are mentally ill..
... That's why their suicide rate is staggeringly higher than almost if not all other groups
That's the only reason?
You can't think of any other contributing factors?
Digital Masta
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

Cane_The9lives wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:22 pm
killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:36 pm They are mentally ill..
... That's why their suicide rate is staggeringly higher than almost if not all other groups
That's the only reason?
You can't think of any other contributing factors?
Another thing you may consider is the number of trans people with significant trauma that stems from various forms of abuse. Funny enough
Blaire White talked a bit about this in a video about NeoPronouns (which I stumbled onto due to the whole Elliot Page thing). Basically, the idea is that the person is using being trans as a way to cope with the trauma they experienced but they aren't actually dealing with the root cause of said trauma so "being trans" doesn't end up fixing the problem. Had they dealt with the trauma in a healthy way one of two things could result:

1. They realize they aren't trans (but maybe gay or not)
2. They are still trans but can now properly cope and have much healthier relationships, a healthier mental state, and a better relationship with society at large

I do wonder how many people are mentally ill because they are trans vs mentally ill so they are trans. Meaning they are covering up other mental illness/issues by saying they are trans.

Speaking of news in the transgender world

Yo..but guys...Caitlyn Jenner vs Gavin Newsom? What timeline are we living in? If you would've said 10-15 years ago that this would happen nobody would believe you.

Assuming this actually takes off I'm curious about the democratic attack tactics they would try to play. Because they're gonna have to be careful although I'd imagine that because Jenner is a Republican it doesn't count, they can just attack at will.
Cane_The9lives
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Re: There we go

Post by Cane_The9lives »

Digital Masta wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:07 pm

Another thing you may consider is the number of trans people with significant trauma that stems from various forms of abuse. Funny enough
Blaire White talked a bit about this in a video about NeoPronouns (which I stumbled onto due to the whole Elliot Page thing). Basically, the idea is that the person is using being trans as a way to cope with the trauma they experienced but they aren't actually dealing with the root cause of said trauma so "being trans" doesn't end up fixing the problem. Had they dealt with the trauma in a healthy way one of two things could result:

1. They realize they aren't trans (but maybe gay or not)
2. They are still trans but can now properly cope and have much healthier relationships, a healthier mental state, and a better relationship with society at large
This still glosses over the crux of the issue i.e. the genesis of the abuse and the environmental and societal factors integrated in that equation as it relates to the persons individual choices and self image. It's also a far more nuanced take(interesting but ultimately anecdotal) than the one currently being bandied around by the loudest (and most reductive) bloviating talking heads.

Questions I never hear asked by the "It's simply a mental illness nothing more" crowd is: What degree of difference is there between a homosexual and a transgender person? What level of cognition do transgender people possess as to the biological reality of their chromosomes?; what classifies transgenderism as a mental illness over homosexuality? Is a homosexual possessed with the supposedly unnatural urge and attraction towards the same sex(in direct contravention to human biological propagation) ill? Or is this only true once the "Patient" crosses the "Gender event horizon" due to a complication of trauma, genetics, and environment?

I've listened to Blaire White for quite some time, she's fully aware of the immutable scientific fact of her actual, literal gender.
Much of the discussion used to bolster the arguments for mental illness as ultimate cause rather than proximate cause is the strawman that they use "Man"/"Woman" in a literal sense; for most it's just synecdoche or metonymic in origin and practical usage.
Digital Masta wrote: I do wonder how many people are mentally ill because they are trans vs mentally ill so they are trans. Meaning they are covering up other mental illness/issues by saying they are trans.
Unfortunately those aren't the considerations and talking points currently predominating the national discourse on this subject. Political motivations has co-opted dispassionate, objective analysis for intellectually dishonest misrepresentation that has lent nothing but division and calumny.
Digital Masta
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Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

Cane_The9lives wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:44 am
Digital Masta wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:07 pm

Another thing you may consider is the number of trans people with significant trauma that stems from various forms of abuse. Funny enough
Blaire White talked a bit about this in a video about NeoPronouns (which I stumbled onto due to the whole Elliot Page thing). Basically, the idea is that the person is using being trans as a way to cope with the trauma they experienced but they aren't actually dealing with the root cause of said trauma so "being trans" doesn't end up fixing the problem. Had they dealt with the trauma in a healthy way one of two things could result:

1. They realize they aren't trans (but maybe gay or not)
2. They are still trans but can now properly cope and have much healthier relationships, a healthier mental state, and a better relationship with society at large
This still glosses over the crux of the issue i.e. the genesis of the abuse and the environmental and societal factors integrated in that equation as it relates to the persons individual choices and self image. It's also a far more nuanced take(interesting but ultimately anecdotal) than the one currently being bandied around by the loudest (and most reductive) bloviating talking heads.

Questions I never hear asked by the "It's simply a mental illness nothing more" crowd is: What degree of difference is there between a homosexual and a transgender person? What level of cognition do transgender people possess as to the biological reality of their chromosomes?; what classifies transgenderism as a mental illness over homosexuality? Is a homosexual possessed with the supposedly unnatural urge and attraction towards the same sex(in direct contravention to human biological propagation) ill? Or is this only true once the "Patient" crosses the "Gender event horizon" due to a complication of trauma, genetics, and environment?

I've listened to Blaire White for quite some time, she's fully aware of the immutable scientific fact of her actual, literal gender.
Much of the discussion used to bolster the arguments for mental illness as ultimate cause rather than proximate cause is the strawman that they use "Man"/"Woman" in a literal sense; for most it's just synecdoche or metonymic in origin and practical usage.
Digital Masta wrote: I do wonder how many people are mentally ill because they are trans vs mentally ill so they are trans. Meaning they are covering up other mental illness/issues by saying they are trans.
Unfortunately those aren't the considerations and talking points currently predominating the national discourse on this subject. Political motivations has co-opted dispassionate, objective analysis for intellectually dishonest misrepresentation that has lent nothing but division and calumny.

I don't disagree with any of this because, at the end of the day, it's very complicated. But that's the point. Hell, we can't even tell how much of being gay is biological vs environmental. Case in point, it can't be entirely biological because one of my best friends has an identical twin. My friend is as straight as it gets but his brother is super gay. They have the exact same genetics. Yet my friend remembers that one day when they were little they were being picked up from playing at a friend's house (it was a girl) and in the car, his brother told them to wait because he forgot to borrow a toy from her...it was a barbie (or some kinda Barbie-like figure). My friend thought it was super weird at the time that he'd want to play with a barbie. So who knows?



This is exactly why you don't mess with children when it comes to this stuff. Children are the most vulnerable among us and you may disagree but messing with their natural physical and psychological development in hopes of political correctness (and for some actors in hopes of destroying the family...DIFFERENT TALK FOR A DIFFERENT TIME) is abuse as far as I'm concerned. And getting all Elliot Page "WE ARE GONNA DIE" hysterical about it doesn't help at all.

Look, I'm not a parent and I can't imagine what it must be like to be a parent and have to deal with these kinds of issues in regards to their kids. I hope I never have to experience it.
xandorxerxes
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Re: There we go

Post by xandorxerxes »

Digital Masta wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:20 pm But hey, when your daughter has her championship stolen from her because she got 2nd place in a competition where she would've gotten 1st had a boy not been competing with girls you can explain all this to her.
Hopefully I'd have taught her well enough that this wouldn't be an issue. So here's my question - let's say she doesn't get beat out by a trans woman, but instead gets beat out by some other genetically-gifted Olympian of an athlete. What do I tell her that's any different? What if she gets beat out by a trans man who has 10x the testosterone of a trans woman because the trans man is forced to compete with other women, what do I tell her then? Let's go with a real world example - your elementary school kid plays with other elementary school kids of the same grade and gender. Problem is that one kid developed super early and not only has actual muscles, but is 12 inches taller too. Of course your kid loses. What now?
- There are already proposals to stop doing gendered sports in general and make it more like fighting where you are limited to competing against people of similar builds.
And that is a terrible idea.
Why? Kids who develop early have a massive advantage over those who don't in sports. Put the kids who are at similar developmental stages together. If girls on average are shorter and thinner, they get put with people who are similarly shorter and thinner. Also I don't remember all of the sports listed where trans men won, but I believe one was running.
- Trans people are dying of suicide at a much higher rate (5:3)
And guess what? Transitioning doesn't help that statistic. The rate isn't affected if they transition or not. It's almost as if there is something else going on with them mentally. Apparently, slaves during slavery and people in the Holocaust had significantly lower rates of suicide meaning a group of people that were treated like property and a group of people that were literally being eradicated from existence killed themselves at lower rates. So it can't because "people treated me mean because I'm trans," or "I didn't get the play sports with the girls", that the suicide rate is so high.
Except... not. "67% of transitioning people thought more about suicide before transitioning whereas only 3% thought about suicide more after their transition (Bailey et al., 2014)."
- Kids aren't transitioned, they're put on puberty body blockers that delay the physical effects of puberty until they're more capable of making informed decisions (only long-term negative side effect identified in what I read was that it can make it harder for some biological men to surgically transition to women).
That's semantic BS. Putting kids on puberty blockers, forcing parents to use the gender the child prefers, school systems undermining parents to do so is all part of the transitioning process, and it is wrong. Children are not your subjects for your social experiments.
It's not semantic one bit. Delaying does literally nothing. If you delay 10 years then go off the blockers, you end up the same as if you weren't on them. Transitioning to a new gender or developing birth-defined sexual organs sets a conclusion in stone. It doesn't force parents to do anything, they don't even have to give the blockers if they don't want to. Kids are not used for experiments, that's literally illegal (unless you're talking about individuals and not at a societal level, in which case see your comment about why we should care about extreme minorities).
- Many people think trans people are just mentally ill, ergo they think trans people shouldn't exist.
There are a plethora of mental illnesses that exist in this world. Doesn't mean that the person who suffers from it shouldn't exist. It just means they exist with a mental illness and need treatment. Some need more treatment than others.

You are arguing that a man thinking he's a woman or vice versa isn't a mental illness. That's literally the embodiment of a mental illness.
Down Syndrome is an interesting choice of metaphor here, given that it's a genetic condition and not a mental illness.

By categorizing roles and traits to individual genders as opposed to individual characteristics, people are saying those who fall outside those boundaries are mentally ill. Psychologists/psychiatrists are instead saying that the mental illness is feeling that they're in the wrong body. That sounds semantic, but there's a distinction in that some transgender people don't have gender dysphoria - they like the body they have, they just recognize that in society they desire to have the role typically given to the other gender. Having the wrong body is treatable - you change your body or identify ways to be comfortable in the one you have. Simply being transgender isn't the issue.

Now, this could be full of shit since I'm not trans and again haven't done nearly enough reading, but let's say for a moment that we as a society have 0 expectations for people to do anything based on their sex. No dresses and pink things for girls, no blue machismo for boys. Both can wear whatever they want, dress however they want, date whoever they want. Everyone uses unisex bathrooms. No one cares about any of that. Does transgenderism exist? There's no psychological gender distinction there (DSM-5), so there's no one who needs to switch genders. If there's some other component in regards to having the "correct" physical body I have no idea, so I can't comment on that.

I have yet to see any persuasive argument as to why anyone should give two shits about what anyone else wants to be. Trans people have been allowed in the Olympics since 2003. No winners yet. Kids sports are kids sports. Teach your kid how to lose gracefully and use it to motivate him/her to get better, that's one of the things kids sports are there for.

Now, I have 0 idea about what Page said, and I don't have the knowledge to make educated commentary on it specifically even if I did. I just picked out what I thought the parts you had the biggest problems were and looked up the relevant information.
killacross wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:36 pm They are mentally ill..
... That's why their suicide rate is staggeringly higher than almost if not all other groups

It was only like <5 yrs ago it was socially acceptable to say it out loud
Being transgender doesn't spiral someone into suicidal ideation. It's all the terrible shit that comes with being a societal outlier.

Final edit hopefully: I should also point out that this doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with everything that you guys have said - I do agree that there are some levels where the amount of people materially affected doesn't justify changes being made to be more inclusive. After thinking this reply through and editing it 80 times, I don't think that kids sports is one of them.

Just like any other issue to me, there's a substantial difference in arriving at the right conclusion from a correct basis versus an incorrect basis, and what I want is that for whatever conclusion we each reach we start from the correct, informed basis. If y'all arrive at a different conclusion in the end than I do, that's all well and good.
Digital Masta
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Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

xandorxerxes wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:26 am losts of things
We're just gonna agree to disagree.

This is why I'm of the "national divorce" mindset when it comes to the US in particular. People's values are now so fundamentally different that we can't even see the same on what constitutes a boy and a girl and why for certain aspects of life we separate the two.

It's gotten so bad that one particular viewpoint views the other as so evil and heinous that their ideas can't even be spoken and to do so means you need to have your life destroyed(Not saying this is you). I mean when you view the other side as Hitler (to use a classic, overused example) then it's your moral duty to stop Hitler. These values cannot co-exist together in one unit, it doesn't work. America was never one big cultural blob to begin with. It wasn't designed that way and for most of its existence, it wasn't that. It's not that. The values of Texas are not the values of New York City. Hell, the values of Southern California aren't the values of Northern California.

So instead of me trying to convince you/force you to live a certain way and vice versa, you live over there with people who are of similar values...and I'll live over here with people who have similar values to mine and where our values to cross when can have interactions at that point. Doesn't mean we hate each other or wish ill of one another.

The problem is again that one side, in particular, will never let that happen. It's a twisted religion, they have to convert you or destroy you.

Why do we have this idea that we all have to be forced to interact and live with one another? We don't do that in our own personal lives. Everyone is not your acquaintance or friend. It doesn't mean you wish to see anything bad happen to those people also doesn't mean we aren't cordial when we do meet.

But if my daughter is playing basketball, I'm going to support the organization that separates the girls and boys, not the one that supports 6'7'' trans girls playing basketball with my daughter.

Guess I'm a bigot.
San Goku
Posts: 1979
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Re: There we go

Post by San Goku »

@ the national divorce mindset

It's funny I always fall for or I'm attracted to the most Liberal leftist women in majority of my relationships throughout my life and it pissez me off. Opposites really do attract or I just need to stop thinking with my penis more.
xandorxerxes
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Re: There we go

Post by xandorxerxes »

Digital Masta wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:52 am It's gotten so bad that one particular viewpoint views the other as so evil and heinous that their ideas can't even be spoken and to do so means you need to have your life destroyed(Not saying this is you). I mean when you view the other side as Hitler (to use a classic, overused example) then it's your moral duty to stop Hitler.
Keep in mind that you're hearing a very vocal minority.

We never actually defined anything before I started blathering, so that's my bad there.

But if my daughter is playing basketball, I'm going to support the organization that separates the girls and boys, not the one that supports 6'7'' trans girls playing basketball with my daughter.

Guess I'm a bigot.
Nah, the sports thing wouldn't make you a bigot. Reasonable people can disagree on that topic regardless of their stance on transgender people.

If you were so blind in your convictions that you ignored factual evidence to the detriment of another group, then you'd be a bigot. I didn't/don't get that impression from you, just that you're looking at it biologically (and more than a "what equipment do you have" level). Trans people (for the vast majority at least) know and understand that when they go to a doctor they have to identify the sex they were born as. Trans men know that they're still at risk for ovarian cancer. That's just a different level than where the gender discussion is, as gender has been segregated from biological sex and moved into a social construct at some point. Maybe I'm just missreading you on that and you already assumed that, but like I mentioned above we never really set common definitions so who knows. My only comment would be that playing against a 6'7" trans man (since he would be stuck in the female leagues) would be even harder from a competition perspective than a 6'7" trans woman, which is the alternative unless you're just going to ban all transgender people from sports.
San Goku wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:49 pm @ the national divorce mindset

It's funny I always fall for or I'm attracted to the most Liberal leftist women in majority of my relationships throughout my life and it pissez me off. Opposites really do attract or I just need to stop thinking with my penis more.
My wife is pretty far left, but her youngest sister and mom are in danger from falling off the side of the spectrum. I'm a natural contrarian (to an asshole level, as you guys know) so I try to avoid anything political with them when possible after I pissed them off a few times. I don't mind politics with you guys, I just know some people don't like it so I try to keep it more to myself now.
Digital Masta
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Re: There we go

Post by Digital Masta »

xandorxerxes
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Re: There we go

Post by xandorxerxes »

No butchering of the word symbiote. This movie is already 1,000% better even though I've seen neither.
San Goku
Posts: 1979
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Re: There we go

Post by San Goku »

DM beat me to it, I was just about to post. Looks good to me! Another comic movie I'll be watching.
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