1. Character in immortal body with unlimited chakra but limited strength who had been detained and was about to be sealed versus character who can absorb chakra with the strength to break the restraints holding him back and defeat those around him.

    'Immortal' character about to be sealed, or mortal who can break free. His choice seems reasonable to me.
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  2. So you admit it's stronger then? Like right now, he can die. That's like saying that fat Buu is < ssj3 Goku because Goku has better feats. And that's not even the case here I see nothing to suggest he has stronger physical strength. And watch as they seal him into the Shinigami it will be all jokes Xandor and you'll have to find something else to damage control :fresh
  3. What?

    Edo Tensei is a weaker version of the living ninja. We saw this. I like the DBZ analogy.

    Edo Tensei Madara power level: 9,001
    Madara power level: >9,001.

    The Edo Tensei is a lower "power level," but his chakra is replenished for him indefinitely. The regular Madara is a greater power level, but requires additional jutsus to compensate for the chakra drain (Rinnegan, cheaty Hashirama cells, etc).

    Regular Madara can still be sealed, but Hashirama had restrained Edo Madara with his jutsu and Sai was about to start laying the first seals on him. He regained his original form and was thus strong enough to break out of Edo Hashirama's jutsu. Now that he's stronger it's going to take more to restrain him to seal him.
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  4. Even though the living one can die right? So Komamura is < Bambietta because Bambietta can do more damage. Nacho Libre is < Kensei because he just couldn't do shit like Kensei can right? Do you know how many shounens stress that the ability to be immortal is very broken? And sage mode Hashirama was breaking even against Edo Madara so yeah. Meteors would smash this guy he has no rinnegan etc etc. any more questions?

    And yeah okay he can be sealed. Bullshit finally identified.
  5. I'm assuming you can seal a living person, at least. Why not?

    Do you realize you're confusing two distinct points? His immortal-ness doesn't relate to his strength. It affects how much damage he can take, sure - but if he's not strong enough to avoid getting sealed while he's immortal, but he is strong enough to break his restraints while not immortal, then it's in his very interests to become mortal again - regardless of the lost sensations.

    So he's not really immortal and he was about to be defeated, but you're still saying it was a mistake gaining the strength to avoid being sealed?

    Isn't that the shonen and American stereotype about the undead, that even the power of immortality isn't better than the sensation of living?
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  6. No the mistake was not doing infinite tsukuyomi during that time, not using the rinnegan in cool battle ways to kill as many people as possible instead of sitting back and waiting for Kishi to think of something, AND then becoming mortal. Like seriously he could have been more active and this battle would have been so much more different but he just Aizen'd the whole time. You're just implying that he can push himself up to around Juubito strength MAYBE which has already been defeated so that's pointless. So really infinite tsukuyomi is the only thing reasonable here and he's not doing it. Also you're implying that the characters would be dumb enough to let him get to the Beasts who are already quite a few kilometers out. But then again this is Naruto... still CIS =/= a strength feat.
  7. He's been fighting Hashirama almost the whole time (after defeating the kages) - his edo equal, who had the upper hand on him, until he became mortal.

    The first thing he did when he became mortal was knock the people attacking him on their asses then run off to the Bijuu. I imagine the others will catch up shortly, but it's not like he just shunpo'ed off into the distance and left everyone standing there.

    He doesn't need to be Juubito strength, he can't be without the Bijuu. He just has to be sufficiently powerful and more skilled than everyone around him. We already knew he was really skilled, now he has the power to back it up. The beasts were already going to him, and I'd be curious to see if he actually tries to destroy them instead of take them for himself.
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  8. Right so he's screwed. If you read Batman or Justice League then you should know what mortality means, even if there's strength increased. Again, he should fire up the tsukuyomi.
  9. Yes, Madara's goal is the infinite tsukiyomi, and he needs the bijuu for that. This is why he is going after them right now. And Madara couldn't use infinite tsukiyomi earlier because you need to be the Juubi jinchuuriki to pull that off and it was stated a long time ago that you have to be alive to be the Juubi jinchuuriki, which is Madara's stated reason for wanting to use Rinne Tensei to revive himself in the first place. As for the timing of it, Madara had no choice as he was about to be sealed and Obito was about to pull a Nagato. This was Madara's last opportunity to take a shot at becoming Juubi jinchuuriki. And as for why Madara didn't try it earlier, he did try to pull this off earlier, but Obito fought off Madara's control, so Madara had to wait until Obito was weakened. So, what exactly is the logic behind your complaint? If Madara had stayed an Edo Tensei, Naruto and Hashirama had him restrained and he would have been sealed and defeated already.

    Bad example. It's outright stated that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Fat Buu and could have killed if he really tried, but Goku had some excuse about not wanting some dead guy to fix the problems for the next generation. Goku later regrets this and before facing Kid Buu states that he could and should have killed the Fat Buu earlier when he had the chance.

    In any case, it's already been stated that Edo Tensei's are weaker than they were alive. That's why Sarutobi could take on the Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama. Tobirama later confirms that this time they summoned with almost their real strength, but the word almost implies that their Edo Tensei forms are weaker than they were alive. Its like in DBZ, Androids 17 and 18 were said to have a power source that gives them infinite energy, while SSJ3 Goku has a limited amount of energy, but no one is going to argue that SSJ3 Goku is weaker than the Androids.

    It's true that the loss of the immortality is a big vulnerability, but not as big as it would be for others. Madara's Hashirama give him super regeneration and healing abilities and according to Madara, Hashirama's abilities in that area are better than Tsunade's. We see Madara's wounds from Sasuke's stab healing at the end of this chapter. Madara may no longer be immortal, but he can still shrug off wounds with regeneration and probably do so long enough to recapture the bijuu and become Juubi jinchuuriki.
  10. He was bluffing defeat for a while, he doesn't have dojutsu which is a huge powerup. He could have killed so many grunts that Naruto made legit through chakra transfer that eventually went on to give Obito trouble. Of course he's just another Uchiha prick just like every other fucking Uchiha doesn't give a shit about his family.

    He could have done serious damage, hell even when the rest of the Edo tensei warriors were fighting he could have been in there taking people out before the hokage's came. He literally has better feats than his current form in edo despite the fact that he can absorb and is seemingly a bit faster which isn't even substantiated. And he's mortal. And my point is he should have done this thing with Hashirama before this happened and just tsukuyomi'd by his damn self. Just backstab Obito properly and get it over with before all of the love duck speeches happened. No sweat.
  11. He was trying, remember? Madara stated he wanted to take Hashirama's Sage power much earlier and Hashirama was dodging the hell away from Madara's black rods. And he did try to backstab Obito earlier, but Obito fought off his control and became Juubi jinchuuriki. It's only now that Obito was weakened by the removal of the bijuu that Madara had the chance to takeover Obito. And once again, he needs to be Juubi jinchuuriki to be able to pull off infinite tsukiyomi and for that he needs to be alive. We covered this already.
  12. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/647/13

    Buuuullshit, he Let's. Him. Communicate. Yeah he was really sweating waiting for that tree to bloom, Hashirama was really pressing him what with all of those speeches and nostalgic dialogue in between and allowing him to talk to his teammates and no jutsu battle and all that yup. If he turned into human form and did what he's doing now to Obito at a time before the Juubi was completely unified into Obito's body he'd be the jinchuruuki like you said. He should have been more active, let Obito know 'hey in order to get this done right we need to get rid of as many of these guys as we can before the hokages get here'. Then as Obito starts to turn he backstabs him at the right time. It would clear up so many of the obstacles they've been forced to improvise on.
  13. From the same chapter: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/647/11

    It's a clone that's communicating. He literally says exactly what happens - that in the extra time it takes to bloom because it doesn't have the full 8 and 9 tails chakra, he will switch with Obito. Mangapanda translations are damn awful, but it also at least predicts he takes Hashirama's senjutsu as well.

    He could have taken over Obito sooner, but it wouldn't have done anything, because he still has to wait the 15 minutes. I think you're also underestimating Obito a bit, as Madara has no senjutsu and can't hurt him. Obito knows Madara is going to backstab him, he's not just going to show him his back.
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  14. As Xandor stated, that was a wood clone. The original was fighting Madara.

    Once again, Madara tried to do then what he did now: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/636/17

    Obito fought off Madara's control. Madara was only able to succeed this time because Obito was weakened by the bijuu's removal:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/656/17
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/656/18

    Madara did try that, telling Obito, "I wanted to attack them before they could start endlessly blabbering." Obito's response:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/614/6
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/614/7

    Things took a while because Obito wanted to "teach them despair" and Madara did backstab as soon as it looked like Obito was vulnerable.
  15. Alright so it didn't work. I accept that, he still should have been working with Obito instead of fighting with his boyfriend way before the shit hit the fan.
  16. Working with Obito to wipe out peons instead of dealing with his old rival and single biggest threat on the battlefield? What makes you think Hashirama would let Madara do what he wanted to, either?
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  17. He was working with Obito until it looked like it was time to seal the Juubi (when the Juubi looked like it was ready to undergo its final transformation). It was slow-going because Obito wasn't stupid enough to trust Madara and Obito was getting obsessed with teaching Naruto despair since Naruto reminded Obito of his past self. And Madara couldn't risk trying to force Obito because with Nagato gone, he needed Obito to use Rinne Tensei and so had to bide his time. It's already explained earlier:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/614/6
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/614/7

    After Obito became Juubi jinchuuriki, there was no more working together. And at that time, Madara was shown trying to steal Hashirama's Sage power so he could try to begin his back-up plan for trying to become Juubi jinchuuriki. But Hashirama was dodging the hell out of Madara's chakra control rods and it was only recently that Madara managed to stab several rods into Hashirama.

    As far as I can see, Madara is doing the best he can to achieve his goal of becoming Juubi jinchuuriki using what's available to him. Most of what's went wrong was due to things that were out of his control.

    What exactly do you think Madara could have done differently? Can you be specific, please?
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  18. Which is why he should have tried harder. You're just implying that when it is just as likely as he wasn't giving it his 100% as with a lot of other scenes with Madara. There was a good deal of time before Hashirama was there before Obito and Madara could have tagteamed and done much more damage. For starters he didn't use his Rinnegan in battle, he didn't use perfect susannoo even though he could have spammed that outright, he didn't use much jutsu he would just taijutsu every time we saw him with Hashirama or fighting others. It's not just me many fans have this complaint. Your points might be true but Kishi did a bad job in displaying that power.
  19. Keeping in mind your original complaint was that the power levels were out of wack, and we know from history that Hashirama always defeated Madara. Your complaint now is that Madara didn't try hard enough to beat Hashirama?

    The remaining ninjas there are ants to Obito and Madara. Madara could have spammed high level techniques in an attempt to wipe them all out fast, but that's not how people act and would conflict with the psychology we've already seen from Madara. Madara seems to enjoy the sensation of killing people (which seemed weird to me), but I'd imagine that's why he left most of them until he got his body back. People in general don't tend to exert more energy than necessary, there's no point in Madara and Obito going crazy on a bunch of ants when the Infinite Tsukiyomi will just take care of them for them. Not that I don't think that Infinite Tsukiyomi is pretty dumb to begin with, but there's also no point on casting a giant genjutsu for everyone once you've murdered them all.

    Also, what's the point in showing Edo Hashi vs Edo Madara? That would just show us everything Madara has to offer, then Kishi would just have to re-use it against everyone now that he's back to life. Lots of Shonen artists off-panel fights people want to see to showcase them later, Kishimoto isn't an exception to shonen clich├ęs. I can understand being upset if you wanted to see the fight, but Madara seems to want that thrill back and he wasn't getting it as a zombie.

    So far everything has gone pretty much how Madara wanted it to. Also, this discussion has certainly changed from the original complaint. I don't think discussing more is bad, and I'm appreciative that you are actually discussing it instead of just trolling (thank you), but I'd also like you to have a chance to re-assess your original complaint if you still think it's valid.
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  20. Tried harder? He was fighting Hashirama, who has kicked his ass everytime they have fought in the past. It's not surprising that it was only recently when Hashirama believed that they had Madara on the ropes that Madara was finally able to stick those control rods into Hashirama. Just because we didn't see the whole fight, doesn't mean that Madara wasn't going 100%. Given how Hashirama has beaten Madara in the past, I find it unlikely that Madara would be able to last against Hashirama if he wasn't going full force.

    Madara said that he wanted to attack the alliance, but it was Obito who interjected and dragged out the battle because he wanted to "teach them despair" and Obito used the fact that he was needed to use Rinne Tensei for Madara to get Madara to go along with it. And Madara was waiting for the Juubi's final transformation to begin before becoming its jinchuuriki, so he decided to bide his time instead of going against Obito then since he needed Obito alive. Madara couldn't risk trying to force Obito to destroying the alliance and from his POV it wouldn't be worth risking it anyway as the remaining ninja were practically ants to them.

    Actually, Madara was using his Rinnegan; mainly the Preta Path, as Hashirama mentioned that he was using his chakra absorbing wood dragon to counter it. And Madara did use his Perfect Susanoo against Hashirama(http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/643/10). So no, he wasn't using just taijutsu. You are right that Kishi didn't do a good enough job displaying Madara's power, but that's because a lot was off-screen as the main focus was on Obito.
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