[Discussion] Poilitics 2017

Discussion in 'General' started by superbob, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. killacross Ninensei

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    wha? they know for a fact it was the Russians...but wont say how...I even asked my buddy and he said it too

    well sir...I know for a FACT it was the martians!! I just cant show you my proof just yet...and I even asked that discovery channel guy
    [IMG]

    he agreed!

    I would much rather have the adult conversation instead of the innuendo from sources that all contradict each other

    and even then...they never once claimed that Russia hacked the ballots...it was "they said something that influenced public opinion"
    ...countries/governments/politicians have done that forever

    the real hypocrisy/issue to me is that they do ALLLLL of this "due diligence" under the suspicion of interference (for now because they wont release their proof)...but they were up in arms about Comey saying..."we just found another pile of deleted emails and need to investigate this" -- then it was "move along nothing to see here"

    ...but I 100% agree with you

    the candidate on the left was horseshit...the candidate on the right was horseshit
    this election was Hillary's to lose -- and she did
  2. Digital Masta Peek A Boo

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    People also seem to forget that many of these three letter acronym government agencies are designed with one of their main objectives being to lie. That's what they excel at, deception, lying and destabilizing other governments.

    "They hacked us!"

    "How? Do you have any proof."

    "We can't tell you that."

    Which is funny because we have people up in arms about Russia POTENTIALLY having gotten into Podesta's emails and Hillary's server AT THE WORST but the fact that our government regularly "influences" elections directly or indirectly all the god damn time doesn't seem to bother anyone. Fuck, Obama directly tried to influence Brexit by literally flying over to the UK to lecture our cousin's across the pond only for them to tell him to "Fuck Off" in a way that only Brits could do.

    Governments hack each other's shit all the time, btw. I swear it's like a weird kind of foreplay for countries. This is what happens when you get large governments. Didn't we hack Merkel's phone?

    Honestly, Hillary would have still lost, regardless. She was an awful, AWFUL candidate and Trump simply campaigned better than she did.

    One more thing, technically Trump, "lost the popular vote" but at the same time he didn't because it's not like there are two elections. The popular vote doesn't mean anything. Both candidates campaigned based on the rules that are established meaning the electoral college. Had the popular vote meant a damn BOTH of them would have campaigned entirely differently.

    You don't win a playoff series in baseball by overall runs scored during the length of the series, you win by the number of games won during that series. If it were the former the way teams played baseball would change dramatically.

    Was it wrong to hack into those things, yes. But the idea that Hillary lost because the information leaked confirmed what everyone knew about Hillary and the Democrats is hilarious. "Oh, well she lost because it told everyone the truth about her and her people."

    Well maybe you guys should get better people because you decided to put your faith behind the most corrupt candidate in modern history.
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  3. XandorXerxes Sannensei

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    Comey's actions were pretty reprehensible too, I was just addressing the one issue SG brought up.

    There's not really conflicting evidence - the forensics all point towards the Russians. That it's some random "Guccifer 2.0" is laughable at best. It's more a matter of "can we definitely say 100% that it was the Russians, or is there that small chance it's actually another power framing the Russians?" It just comes down to how Putin acts, how Russia acts (and historically has acted), and that there's really no need for any of the other major powers to frame Russia - we are/were already in pretty much direct conflict with them. The other powers are probably just grabbing popcorn.

    If you want an analogy, it's closer to "there's a bunch of evidence that says this guy did the crime, but is it so far beyond a reasonable doubt that we're willing to ruffle international feathers over this?"
  4. San Goku Otaku

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    To DM & Killa's point don't forget that a pissed of Israel PM is making a serious claim that President Obama purposely tried to let him lose his election and playing chess with the United Nations vote lol.
  5. Cane_The9lives Indubitably.

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    Very true, this country plays the same game Russia's been playing since the start of the cold war and perhaps even further back. However I would hardly call Obama's attempts at in-person international persuasion comparable to a governmentally sanctioned clandestine operation that's purpose was inherently mischievous. There's a clear distinction between meddling, and interference with the intent to hijack. They really didn't succeed of course, the hacking was a minor blip on the controversy radar when you consider the totality of issues bogging down Hillary's bid, but I have no doubt they carried it out with that express intention

    And Trump would have lost had he faced any other candidate. It doesn't matter how many times a candidate skillfully pivot's from an issue he/she is substantially weak in articulating, or disavows one obnoxious comment after another because viability generally tapers off in the presence of strong alternatives.

    Bernie would have decimated him, the political equivalent of holding a tantrum prone child at arms length by gripping his forehead.
    Hillary was just such a bad alternative that through her inept administrations manifested the most inconceivable election victory in history. She was an amalgam of every form of kryptonite known to the DC universe purposefully weakening a rivals chances (vis a vis "Green") nullifying the allure of an entire political party ("Red"), and creating a superhero out of an obnoxious orangutan ("Orange").
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  6. Digital Masta Peek A Boo

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    I dunno about that Bernie decimation. I mean the strategy to beat him would have been different and in someways easier because from a policy point Bernie's are easy to dismantle because reality doesn't coincide with his ideals. Plus I guarantee they would have starting comparing Bernie to a straight out communist. All you would hear about is Venezuela and every other country that has tried socialism and failed. You would hear about how the policies of Sweden has lead to it becoming the rape capital of the West and how Bernie idolizes the Nordic countries. You'd start to hear stories about how the Nordic system that Bernie praises isn't all that it seems. (I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the book "Debunking Utopia: Exposing the Myth of Nordic Socialism).

    They would target Bernie having built nothing his entire life. He's been in politics his whole life and therefore has never really worked before. I mean it's pretty easy to go in on Bernie.

    He would get the young vote because young people are stupid. He probably wouldn't get Obama level votes though. People 30 and over probably wouldn't be fans of him because these people actually own things and know that Bernie basically wants to tax the shit out of you for being successful. Anyone with a slight understanding of economics (Paul Krugman excluded) knows that Bernie's policies are not very economically sound.

    But really they would just go: "HE WANTS TO STEAL ALL YOU HAVE! LOOK AT WHAT SIMILAR POLICES HAVE DONE TO SWEDEN!"

    Thankfully we never have to worry about Bernie though because that whole "influencing elections" thing is something that Democrats actually do to their own without remorse.
  7. XandorXerxes Sannensei

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    It doesn't sound like you were terribly familiar with Bernie's stances, but the fact that people would get scared at all or think Bernie's a communist (he's nowhere close) says more about the electorate than anything. Bernie's issues were mostly in foreign policy and him completely dropping the ball in the interview about his monetary policy. Hillary picked up the ball and murdered him with it.

    I'm also confused as to how, according to the author of the book you cite, the quality of living in Sweden is because of culture and in spite of its policies yet that Sweden is the "rape capital" (it's not - it's an out-of-context statistic from several years ago) is the fault of its policies but not its culture.

    Given that Trump had a charity he used to evade taxes and that his "university" was a giant sales pyramid scheme, I might have rather voted for someone who built nothing. Of course, Sanders did build up the city of Burlington while he was mayor... balancing the budget while he did. From Wikipedia:

    The US bends allows businesses too much influence as it is, and now with Pai running the FCC and Trump electing business leaders to lead departments that oversee and/or are responsible for impacting the area of their business, we're likely to see why that's such a bad idea on a large scale.

    Unless the businesses are smart and start small, but you know there's going to be one idiot business who doesn't pay attention.
  8. Holy Cowboy Brigade Chief

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    Influencing elections.... Let's see.. How many suicides were there of people that had dirt on HIllary and/or would have had to testify in a court? With said testimony that would have damaged her campaign?
  9. Digital Masta Peek A Boo

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    Huh? The rape capital thing is because of the lax immigration in regards to "helping" migrants by taking them in. Rapes in Sweden have dramatically increased since then. Sweden has the highest rape rate in Europe, although Germany may be in the running in the future, who knows? But in the end that would definitely be used against Bernie as a talking point attack.

    When it comes to Bernie you have to remember where I'm coming from. I'm never going to support more government...ever. Bernie wanted to get Wall Street out of politics...I agree wholeheartedly. Increasing the amount of government control does the exact opposite of that. It's like going North when you want to go South. All that does is create more incentive for big business to get their hands on the government.

    His college for all plan was supposed to cost $75 billion...which means it will actually cost somewhere around $200 billion. Always, always, always at least double the amount when the government says that something will cost X. And any taxes issued to pay for this stuff is just kicking the can down the road. Eventually those who were initially taxed won't be the only ones. It will spread to others in order to pay for it because it will cost more. It happens every time. Example being income tax which was originally supposed to be only for people over a certain income I believe. Sure it will be, "free" in the beginning but they'll end up paying for it when jobs start decreasing because industries that were taxed don't have as much money to invest in new employees. It will take a while to kick in but it will. We need LESS people going to college not more, because everyone and anyone goes to college now getting useless degrees in "Lesbian Dance Theory" and "Afro-Cubano-Social Justice Studies" (Okay that one I made up) the worth of a college education has dropped significantly. The quality of the education has gone down significantly. Mainly because when you have to appeal to everyone you have to drop the standard so that dumb people can get in. College used to be for the smartest of the smart. When it becomes "free" under Bernie, the market will be flooded to the point where the cost of it will skyrocket because colleges can just start jacking up prices because the government will pay for it and the quality will just be shit.

    His jobs program...basic economics, governments don't create jobs, the private sector creates jobs. Get the fuck out of the way and let people invest and create wealth. Jobs that are created through subsidies dry up just as quickly when the subsidy disappears. Also, people don't ever factor in the hidden loss and those are the jobs that weren't created in the private sector due to the government using taxpayer money to "create jobs". So the government creates 50,000 jobs, great! Except for the fact that 100,000 jobs would have been created in the private sector if they just left everything alone.

    All of his policies regarding leave, green energy, minimum wage, etc will cause massive problems in the economy. They always do. Force employers to provide medical leave and they will adjust to offset the cost. That means firing people and not hiring others that they would normally, especially women because men don't typically take as much time off. Increase the minimum wage and they will adjust, they will fire people, make full time people part time or just go out of business. Plus the inflation that results from higher costs will end up negating any benefits of the increase. Minimum wage is the most egregious of the bunch because it forbids you from having control over your own labor. If the minimum wage is $15/hr you have to convince an employer that you are worth $15/hr as opposed to negotiating what you want. Maybe you're okay with doing it for $10/hr because the alternative is $0.

    For the love of god, just get out of the way. Stop trying to micromanage everything and tax people into prosperity. It doesn't work that way. Was in Winston Churchill that said:

    "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

    He wants to do all of this shit and yet we are $20 trillion in debt and have at least $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. We can't pay for any of this shit. We're already in a bubble, that will prick/pop after Trump takes over and he'll be held responsible. Unfortunately he isn't telling people "We are in a bad situation and it's gonna be bad" he's taking credit for a bubble...bad idea.

    I'm all for staying out of foreign conflicts. GTFO of the Middle East, more intervention hasn't worked so let's pack up and go home. We fucked up.
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  10. XandorXerxes Sannensei

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    I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I don't agree with all of the conclusions you drew. I'm with you on education costs and spending, but part of the problem is that we're already there - the government is already paying for it through their loan programs. It's unsustainable. Similar to healthcare, if it's run by the government you're taking the middlemen out of the equation. You can play with supply and demand or you can just set it yourself.

    The internet & cable industries are perfect examples of what happens when government gets out of the way. Our nationwide infrastructure is crap, we're slower than a good number of other nations, and the FCC only abetted the monopolies until Tom Wheeler got in. Now he's on his way out, and the next guys have pledged to send us back to where we were. There has to be a base government involvement - even if it's just to say "we're watching you."

    Inflation adjusted, our minimum wage has gone down over the past 40 years. We can afford to tie it to inflation.

    Our healthcare costs are completely broken, and it's continuing to keep us from paying on our debt. While we need to cut back on military spending, but good luck getting that through Congress. The remaining discretionary spending is peanuts, and getting smaller because it's political suicide to touch Medicare/Medicaid or the military. We've cut back on our teachers, so our public schools are getting worse (even without politicians sticking religion in textbooks).

    Bernie, to me, represented about 0 change. There was no way Republicans were going to let him pass anything in Congress. What Bernie could do, however, is get good people appointed to all of the vacant positions and commissions. Trump's appointees thus far are almost all disasters, and the man still gets to pick a supreme court judge (Mitch McConnell needs to go ASAP, but since his wife just got a cushy appointment...).

    At least we get to pay for a useless wall?
  11. Cane_The9lives Indubitably.

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    And there as they say, "Lies the rub". Trump, I would bet the farm, would have taken exactly the same bombastic lack of nuance tactic with Bernie and would have discovered there are far fewer skeletons in his closet to beat to death. That was his entire shtick, less substance more bravado and sound-bites. The reason it worked was because the sound-bites complimented nicely with the weekly drip from wikileaks and the ever blossoming scandals that followed the Clintons around like a lost puppy in search of a snausage. I'll say this again and I'll continue to say it until this pasty Norn Iron face turns an Arrakis spice induced shade of deep blue, TRUMP DID NOT WIN ON HIS MERIT'S. He had/has no true grasp of foreign policy, he never coauthored a single line of legislation, or held so much as a modicum of executive power. He tapped into populist fervor, put on his best pants, utilized his simplistic(But convincing) elocution, seized upon a bad product (Hillary Clinton) and proceeded to offer a substitute to the countries collective disillusionment.

    His business acumen was a plus, but an easy non sequitur to dismantle by a veteran like Bernie.

    The far right has been leveling those types of condemnations at Barack Obama for the better part of a century, and failed to stop his two terms. Calling Bernie sanders a communist is about as feeble as platitudes come.

    Most people in this country can't even define the damn word.
    They only know they hate it, because they are galvanized into hating it.
  12. San Goku Otaku

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    Boy was that press conference exciting. Does anyone know how much of foreign hotel payment money Trump is donating in the U.S Treasury? Trump is throwing a lot of shots at CNN and Hilary lol.

    I was reading through forum comments this week when Fox brought up the murder of DNC staffer Seth Rich. Then I realized I didn't know exactly how he died. His parents were saying it seems like a robbery but the dude was shot 7 times in the back and his wallet and watch were left at the scene. That doesn't scream suspicious lol? I don't want to bring up old conspiracy theories but damn it's shocking that doesn't warrant an investigation to see if it was a murder for hire.
  13. Cane_The9lives Indubitably.

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    [IMG]

    You're seriously starting to worry me san....
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  14. San Goku Otaku

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    Don't worry Cane I'm still sane I think :)
  15. Cane_The9lives Indubitably.

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    I'm telling you this as a friend....stop reading fox news comment sections.
    You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
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  16. San Goku Otaku

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    Agreed
  17. Digital Masta Peek A Boo

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    Obama was trying to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi during that speech. Because the reality he speaks of doesn't exist.
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  18. XandorXerxes Sannensei

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  19. Cane_The9lives Indubitably.

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  20. superbob Suspended in a sunbeam

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