Discussion in 'General' started by superbob, Apr 13, 2016.
Here you go guys, have at it. Don't spam and keep the discussion civil
Dont think the discussion will get uncivil
essentially...we pay too damn much in taxes in the US and dont have much to show for it
lackluster schools + lackluster highways/infrastructure...but a world class military
There is a valid argument for paying smaller taxes. As I am not american I don't have enough info on hand to comment on that right now.
What I would like to tackle is progressive tax vs flat tax.
A little issue at first Killa. You mentioned that "(28% tax bracket + 5.75% state) = 33.75... so the 35+ was technically incorrect...but I DID end up paying more than 35% (just wasnt all income tax)"
the first part is incorrect. being in 28% bracket with 5.75% extra flat rate does not make your tax rate 33.75%. it makes part of your income above $148,850 to be taxed at that rate. The part of your income below that is taxed at lower rate which makes your effective tax rate lower as well.
to be exact:
at 200k of joint income.
$28,925 at amounts below $148,850
and 28% of $51,150 = $14,322
you do the same with your state and local taxes which are not flat rate. NYC is not apparently. You pay the percentage at the each level of income. I had to use a website for the calc as you guys HAVE MESSED UP TAX SYSTEM. Holy shit its complex with state, local, FICA.
I got total income tax of 200K joint income as:
which is 32% only slightly lower than what you said but also includes FICA and Local tax (as NY City has extra tax) but i think also includes 2 personal exemptions. whatever that is
Now why I consider flat rate silly:
It shifts burden of the upkeep of the country from more wealthy people to the poor.
The country needs x amount of money to sustain itself. to get that x flat rate would be set at certain level. lets say that 20%.
20% of 30k salary is a lot of money for a person. that means lack of hot food, lack of entertainment and most importantly diminished ability to educate oneself and children.
20% of 300k salary. Not really a lot for a person. still plenty of money for food, shelter and most importantly, investment to grow the pot, to make 300k into 400k.
Flat rate would increase inequality, make standard of living for the most poor unbearable shifting them from working legally to cash on hand jobs (so no tax and easier to screw over employees) and shifting to illegal activities. Why work for 30k while government takes such a big chunk from your salary.
One of the reasons why flat tax on income is not really adopted by developed economies. from wiki only Estonia, Lithuania and Hungary (which also have one thing in common beside that) which I would classify as First World countries that have flat tax rate. (and Andorra. special case for that ubber rich tiny country. very beautiful btw. do recommend going there)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
I also know that Hungary has additional taxes which are not captured in that flat rate which takes a big chunk of your income.
it is unworkable in highly complex economies such as USA. No benefit to anyone except super rich and very unfair.
Reducing that X to make everyone pay lower progressive tax. I can get behind that.
im talking rough math here...my effective federal tax rate is likely closer to 25% and NC has a flat tax of 5.75% for all income
my CPA gives us a report every year that shows taxes owed vs income...and then gives tips to lower that number (which are generally -- put as much as you can in roth and std IRA...it lowers my taxes now..and will lower them in the future -- but the wealth doesnt disappear -- i DONT do that because at 31...i have another 30 yrs for that money to grow NOW as opposed to not being able to touch it without paying some huge taxes + penalties ..which would be almost 50%
...my circumstances are "unique" in that...my wife and I are high income earners...no mortgage/no student loans/no children/plenty in investment income
...we only get the standard deduction (this year its about $12.5K so a savings of roughly $3k on our tax BILL)...I havent gotten a refund since college when I was working -- but not making anywhere near the money I do now -- and ive EARNED every penny of it
I know our tax bill was above 35%..35%+ is an exaggeration to imply im paying closer to 40% but it was more like 36-37% ...because of all the other taxes/penalties I paid (I started a new job last year...so I rolled/converted my 401K to a ROTH IRA and generated an additional couple thousands in tax penalty/bil..plus our investments were positive last year so that generated additional taxes...even though i didnt technically see the money -- its just numbers on a spreadsheet (PLUS that is all AFTER tax investing...so I've already paid taxes on it once)
...again, I stated that the 35 wasnt strictly income tax
i dont see a flat tax as immoral like you do...if you pay 10% (10 out of 100) and I pay 10% (100 out of 1000)...we BOTH have a hand in the outcome and weve both sacrificed the SAME -- tithing is based on this principle... = 110 to the gov.
if you pay 1% (1 out of 100) and I pay ~11% (109 out of 1000)...the government sees the same...but why is my tax rate 11x the first guy? because its not "fair"...because i have more than i need? because the system is rigged? little man cant get ahead? ive honestly never heard a good justification for that
technically...in the US its documented close to 50% of the population pay 0 in federal income taxes...(cost romney an election last go round)...so even then its more like 0% for one and 11% for the other...but they both get equal votes (which means one votes for MORE stuff because to his pockets...its FREE -- the other votes for less and is then called an evil 1%)...
eventually the one starts to find ways to LEGALLY hide money through "loopholes" (though the ONLY loophole Ive seen for the individual is doing back door Roth IRA investing (...the whole failing company thing works...but IF caught will get you fined and likely arrested)...other than just good ol fleeing the country...Ive never seen/read about these mystical tax loopholes that AAAALLLLL the rich seem to be abusing (I dont even see the strictly investment income as a loophole because you (or an ancestor) paid taxes on the money once...and now pay taxes on it again -- just because...and then pay taxes on it IN DEATH <-- which is ABSOLUTELY immoral)
also...exemptions BENEFIT lower income people more...if two people get the same 12.5k tax exemption...if youre making 50K you benefit more than me at 200K because its a higher percentage of your world
...or...if you were right at a tax bracket...you would benefit more from going to the lower bracket
so no one EVER makes it out of poverty? guess I learned something today
long story short...i dont see it as the governments job to try to level the playing field or transfer wealth
...but that being said, Im STILL going to try to make as much money as possible...there is no tax bracket that is 100%!!
I don´t know what you guys are bitching about. We pay up to 50% of our income, depending on how much you make. And that´s only income tax. I don´t even want to start about road tax or whatever you guys call it in the states. I pay €320 every quarter for a 1.9tdi A3. That's almost 1300 bucks a year.
I share the same opinion as DM that he stated in the shoutbox.
I'm willing to pay taxes to help people that actually deserve and need the money, instead of wasting it on the royal kingdom so that they can live luxerious lives for example in my case.
Why we still have a monarchy when we're a democracy is beyond me anyway.
Road taxes, I can agree to them to a certain degree. Here in Holland they do way top much shit to the roads that it doesn't even need (road bumps and roundabouts freaking everywhere).
Our neighbour country Germany has practically the same quality of roads as we do and they don't even pay 1/4 of what we pay in road tax.
in the US..the individual states maintain most roads (funded by toll roads, vehicle property taxes and fees, and a use/gasoline tax - in NC...its about $.35 extra per gallon // real estate property taxes fund schools)...the roads are absolute shit
..the federal government maintains our highway system (tax is $.18 extra per gallon) ...the roads are absolute shit
...instead of spending taxes collected for roads on roads...they spend it on other dumb shit because generally the government knows better than you...and then the next year they whine about needing to increase the taxes because they have a revenue shortfall because cars are just too fuel efficient so they arent raising enough revenue
NC was thinking of imposing a flat tax of $75 for every vehicle registration and then a use tax of ___ cents per mile + the gasoline tax + increasing property tax rates
...it didnt pass though and our statewide government shifted
honestly...the problem with taxes is that EVERY government entity has such a horrible track record with managing the money...and using the money for what it is intended
in situations where they have a private sector competitor...the private sectors does a lot more...for a lot less -- so people are interested in cutting government funding to force them to be more efficient
I have to get a bit philosophical here...
My feeling on taxes stems from morality and ethics. I still have to pay them but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how you try to justify it, it is still theft.
I have two minds on this
1. The world I want to see developed through promoting non-aggression, volunteerism, free market capitalism (which we DON'T HAVE today, we have a form of a market economy but it is by no means free market) personal liberty, tolerance, peaceful parenting and all that jazz. This world will not happen within my lifetime which leads me to number two.
2. Changing the current world bit by bit which will push things towards number 1. Which is means limited government so less regulations, less taxes and more freedom for the free market to do it's thing.
So basically, #1 is an anarcho-capitalist society and #2 is politically and culturally libertarian. I'm not all about the political party itself though but my ideals are definitely libertarian.
Everything stems from non-aggression. Basically do whatever the fuck you want so long as you don't violate someone else or their property. This is a universal. If it isn't then that is a slippery slope of trying to manipulate things to fit the situation. We can all agree that nobody wants to be stolen from, assaulted or killed. If you do want these to happen to you then it isn't theft, assault or murder. If I want you to steal from me then it can't be called theft because theft means I didn't want you to take it from me.
Obviously this doesn't include times under duress. If I'm being mugged and it's, "Give me your wallet or I'll shoot you in the head." it is still theft because the option was either wallet or death.
So, do you own your body? I'm gonna say that you all agree that you own your individual body, right?
Do you own the things you produce with your body? Meaning, if I buy wood from the store and build a boat with that wood do I own that boat? I think you'd agree that yes, I own the boat.
The exception would be if I'm building it for someone else. This is essentially what being an employee or being contracted to do a job is. You enter a contract willingly with another person or business and exchange for what you produce they give you money or whatever else you two agreed on.
I'm simplifying a bit here but taxes are a direct violation of this. I didn't voluntarily enter a contract like with a job.
People talk about the "social contract" which is complete nonsense. I entered that contract upon being born in America? In what universe is it okay to enter a contract with an infant? People also talk about leaving the country. Leaving the country doesn't change anything because you're just going to have to pay taxes in that other country and moving to another country isn't easy and in many ways you don't have any control over whether or not you can get the visa. Plus again, that whole social contract thing is nonsense. "Oh, by moving here you automatically agree to be taxed". Seriously, have you ever entered into a contract that had "automatic" conditions not mentioned in any way, shape or form in the contract?
Plus what kind of contracts never end? Even marriage has a way out and with marriage it is voluntary, you choose to get married. What kind of contracts aren't negotiable? Where is the option to walk away from it if I don't think it's for me? Where is the option to shop around for a better option?
It is illegal for me as an individual to do what the government does through taxes. I'd be arrested for theft, extortion and possibly assault or murder if taken far enough. Yet somehow when a group individuals with guns (government) does it, it becomes perfectly legal.
Taking people's money, without their permission and then using it however you see fit is theft.
This post is getting too long but I'm sure I'll elaborate as responses come in.
EDIT: The Jason Stapleton Program is a great libertarian podcast and I will link to an episode that does a really solid job explaining some things.
as an American...generally the politicians either campaign to accept a European model...or campaign against it
just kinda curious...do you all have people who abuse the system like we do stateside? for example these:
...hit the jackpot
it gets worse...
^^i was actually OK with this one...but if you want to fix it...people on the dole shouldnt be able to play the lottery but whatever
eventually she died of a drug overdose about 3 months later...and had about $70,000k left of the money
or this piece of shit
this is the biggest fear...she eventually ended up in a 6 bedroom home with a payment for every child..and was upset that her three oldest "Aged out" of the system (meaning they turned 18+ and are considered adults / no longer minors -- so no more money for her)
it creates generational dependence....and they keep learning how to manipulate the system better than the last. then we have a political party that promises them more and campaigns on the premise of the rich not paying their "fair share" of the tax burden...
so kinda curious if this happens overseas?
But those are the outliers. Most people need welfare!
Yeah...no. The people who are really deserving of welfare don't actually stay on it. I'm not concerned with them. They are the minority. If there were no welfare these kinds of people would be fine. Others would recognize them as the deserving poor and would easily get help from others. Also that includes those that genuinely can't work for serious reasons.
Killa, these pieces of shit are the types are the black people that the left LOVE, "Oh, you poor victim, you. It's systemic racism that keeps you down."
No, it's welfare. Welfare destroyed the black family, not racism.
kinda curious DM...you familiar with milton friedman?
A bit, I've been learning more as I increase my libertarian consumption.
These people are everywhere. In my home country the current unemployment is around 10% and has been holding at this level for few years (in last 15 years max was 20%)
that's official unemployment levels. Real levels are now much lower. even half of that i would say.
what is happening is that people on dole do have full time jobs or at least part time ones. what they do is get the government money and most importantly health insurance and then work cash on hand.
they don't pay taxes instead just take money for themselves. or just leave at bare minimum and drink themselves stupid.
In regards to paying for a child. currently ruling party won on the basis of this promise. 500 zloty (130 usd) per month for a child. it is idiotic and worse there is no way they can find money to do so.
There is abuse of the system and there is minimization of social conflicts.
Welfare was introduced fairly late in our civilization. eighteen century only, when the modern development forced people into cities where getting food without money was difficult. A factory worker has no skills nor connections nor place to get food if he has no job. hence factory workers started to look out for each other, so unions and then pressure was on government to fix that.
cause nobody wants to see starving people on the streets, or make them criminals.
so welfare exists, to protect society from conflicts and needless death. blaming the concept of it on the problems caused by government and peoples' ineptitude is incorrect. especially in USA where government and society as a whole constantly mishandles issues dealing with non-white people.
Have you guys traveled to some third world countries which lack proper welfare and have low taxes / non enforceable taxes.
this is what you want? poverty, violence, death on streets, insecurity unless you are super rich? Cause those countries implemented what DM suggested. uncontrolled capitalism, low or non existent taxes, no welfare nor state sponsored expenditure.
I prefer fifty five percent tax rate in Norway or max 47% in Australia (where i currently reside)
Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed my holidays there, spending my Australian dollars. beautiful countries with rich histories.
i still consider them hellholes if i had to live there as local.
Dreed if you're ever actually interested in seeing where myself and killacross may be coming from I recommend these:
Jason Stapleton Program:
Tom Woods Podcast:
The above links to his (free) books. I suggest the audio books. The books I recommend checking out are:
UPB: Universally Preferably Behavior: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics
I mean, we could write walls and walls of text but I'd rather you hear it from people that do it better than I do.
1. in teh US it is around 5% (though they changed the way they calculate unemployment when it came time for president obama to run for reelection -- the theory was that no sitting president was ever reelected with unemployment above 7%...and that month it adjusted from 10% down to 6.9% -- radio hosts went ballistic) ..the true unemployment rate (not full time but wanting fulltime) is around 10%
2. we have that problem in the food industry (bars restaurants) where people work and dont report their tips...and in the physical labor category -- people are day laborers and work job to job (landscaping, construction, etc -- this is also where the complaint about illegal immigrant/aliens comes from)
this is also why people (myself included) think social programs should come with a time limit...you get 3 months of help + 3 months of diminished help (600 / month for 3 months...then 500...then 300...then 200)...then youre on your own
instead people use them to supplement their income -- and thats not what the program was designed for
3. the problem with the government promising things in exchange for votes is that the problem itself is never fixed...
they offer you so much money in exchange for votes -- people get very excited because it a lot of money
...AFTER they get your vote, there is no more incentive for them to help solve the problem...so instead they move on to the next group...promise them something in exchange for your vote...the original issue loses focus so nothing is actually solved
BUT in order to do that new thing...they need MORE money...and with MORE money the government grows
when the government grows large enough and takes enough of the money...do you know what they call that?
...and it has been tried over and over and over and over and over...and EVERY SINGLE time...the country/economy collapses...people fall into poverty and violence and crime
4. I think the American (founded on Judeo-Christian principles) view is...I am my "brothers keeper" but its balanced with "if a man WILL NOT work...then he should not eat"
meaning...if you are in need, I am more than willing to HELP you, not do it FOR you...thats how Ive ALWAYS felt - you should only help people who are helping themselves...that drug addict REALLY needs $5 for his next fix...well tough, Im not giving you money
but if that drug addict needs $5 to get into rehab...I would pay the bill directly for him
(which is another unrelated topic about buying homeless food/giftcards as opposed to giving them cash)
the scripture from Thessalonians is VERY clear...it does not say...if he CAN NOT work...it says if he WILL NOT
we are not against a system that has a safety for people in dire straights...we are upset that we have a system that is so bloated that people can abuse it...and there is either 1. nothing done to stop the abuse...or 2. the system is so bureaucratic and unwieldy that nothing CAN be done...(two videos I posted above demonstrate the problem...the one -- these people could line up for hours a day to get their hand outs -- but cant be studying something to better themselves? can be applying for jobs to better their situation in life? ...or the other guy -- would you rather have the cash or have a job? -- I want the cash! -then realized what he said and that his face was out there Id love a career -- yet is likely making no strides to get a career)
(unrelated -- in NC...they tried to pass a law that said...if youre on public assistance...you have to take a drug test...if you fail...youre cut off
people went batshit and it didnt pass - but that seems common sense to me...I DONT WANT TO WORK HAD EVERY DAY TO HAVE MONEY TAKEN FROM ME SO THAT YOU DO NOTHING...its not fair to either of us...)
this might be a cultural thing...but I dont think so because I feel that it is one of those universal understanding things...
5. youre being glib for the sake of being dramatic...plenty of capitalist AND communist countries in the world where people arent dying in the streets in droves...the difference is where the "wealth" is held...by the people or by the government -- so comparing the quality of life for the PEOPLE in a capitalist country vs a communist country
the real problem we have is that the government wants their hands in things, but they NEVER solve the problem as quickly, effectively or thoroughly as the private sector would...and EVERY year they require more and more money...
and to answer the question...Yes Ive been to several countries outside of the US...I went to Ghana in college about 10 yrs ago (3rd world)...also the Bahamas, Nicaragua, Mexico, greece (i consider those 2nd world)...then germany, czechloslavakia (when it was still one country), france, united kingdom, turkey, belgium, italy and spain [my parents were military]
6. why stop there? i think you need a 95% tax and the 5% can be your spending money
I bet at your income level in australia...5% of your pay and youre still above 60% of the worlds population (Im exaggerating...but I doubt its that far off)
i would MUCH rather be the exact opposite of that...let social problems become private sector problems and let me keep my hard earned
I agree with everything killa said.
-Charity should be limited and given out privately where a person can choose how they want to help someone else in need with the money they earned themselves. If they don't want to help anyone then that's fine too. It's their money. They can choose not to help people in genuine need and I can choose not to associate with them and tell others who also would agree with me the same thing.
-At the end of the day, no other person has any right to someone else's money. Just because someone makes more than they "need" they should be forced to give it to others? Who am I to tell them that they have more than they "need".
If I make one million a year and I am taxed at 50% I just lost 500,000 dollars. That money is completely taken out of the market. That is money that I could have used to create jobs by investing it or starting a new business. I could have decided to donate all of that to various groups and charities and I could have directly helped way more people with that money that the government where only a small percentage of that goes towards "helping" people.Or I could take all of that and blow it all on blow, hookers and alcohol but it's my money so that's my prerogative.
The US government has thrown trillions of dollars at welfare since the 60s and the problem hasn't been fixed. So what do we do? "Oh, let's just throw more money at it!" that makes no sense. The government is actually the worst business on the planet. No private business would do something that stupid...unless the goal isn't to actually fix the problem but something else and that is what killa mentioned in his post and buying votes.
-It's also completely subjective. There is no objective measure for taxes. Make a $1000 dollars, no tax. Make $1001 and the government takes 50%. And like killa said where does it end? How about this?
People who can sing have more opportunities to perhaps make a living from it than those who are terrible. Let's go around destroying vocal cords to make it more fair.
People with higher IQ tend to do better in life than those with lower IQ. Maybe we should abuse kids with high IQs in order to lower their IQs to make it more fair.
Hey, more attractive people have a better chance of attracting the people they want. Let's make it more equal for the unattractive people and have the government establish a scale from 1-10. If you're a 6 and a above the government won't give you a partner because you're attractive enough. If you're 5 and below the government will give you a partner.
I am being ridiculous but we can all agree that the above examples are horrible concepts. Yet they are no different from taxes. It's subjective so there is no answer and the government can just change it whenever they want.
-There is this phenomenon where people think they are the only altruistic person on the planet and that everyone else is a selfish piece of shit. Therefore support of current public works and charity for others can't be sustained privately because people won't pay. This logic is false. It's just that people want the choice. It means that if you want to start something like a charity you're going to have to work damn hard to get people's money to support it depending on the type of charity. It means that if you need charity from people you're going to have to:
1. Not be a dick. Meaning people like and appreciate you enough that they want to help you in your time of need.
2. Make smart decisions. Meaning if you want people's help you better not have 12 kids by 5 different guys because nobody is going to subsidize your bad decision.
3. If you do find a charity the conditions upon receiving it will likely be strict and temporary meaning you need to make sure you can eventually support yourself.
Here's the thing about humans. We respond to incentives. It's simply our nature. Our desires are infinite but resources are finite. It's what made us so damn successful as a species. If you subsidize bad decisions and behavior, a person has no reason to change.
I live in a country where this has become a huge problem with the workforce. Japan did the whole lifetime employment thing and now it's backfiring and they are losing out to places like South Korea which is killing it in the electronics market. You don't get fired in Japan. Why the fuck would you work really hard when you can just cruise? It's not like these people are all lazy, it's just human nature.
Some years back one of the states made changes to the minimum wage and that change affected some people on welfare where they wouldn't get their welfare benefits because of the new pay increase so what did they do? They altered their working habits so that they could still get the welfare benefits.
Wealthy people do it to. Raise taxes and they're going to alter their behavior to fit the new situation so they can pay less taxes.
Back in the 90s Clinton did something with welfare benefits where I believe people had to prove they were working and what happened? Mass panic, rioting and outrage? Nope. THEY GOT JOBS! Incentives.
In the above example about the 1-10 scale all of the 6s would change their behavior to start looking like 5s in order to get that partner.
Not exactly related to taxes and such, but Gary Johnson was a guest for about the first half an hour on Penn's sunday school podcast. Not sure if this will link properly but it's on the episode list if it doesn't.
He does a basic overview of his tax policy.
In my opinion, there should be some taxes, but not to the extent that we have it as, and moreso on the state level vs the federal level. There are federal programs that I believe are necessary (such as the NPS and NFS) but there is significant mismanagement when it comes to them.
I do have a problem with completely getting rid of taxes and expecting people to "donate" money towards services. But, I think this should be managed at the state level vs the federal level.
I love NASA and their exploits have given goals to several generations of citizens. The problem with the modern NASA though is all the bureaucracy they have now. Just look at what SpaceX is able to do with the falcon vs the SLS (budget black hole).
All said, I'm fine with paying some taxes for your basic services such as the interstate highways, parks and forests, and such. I think all of these are very mismanaged right now though.
What are your opinions on tax money going into prisons?
I would like no tax but I can accept very limited taxes because I do live in reality. And limited taxes is a step in the right direction. However, I'd rather pay that tax on sales tax as opposed to my income.
Prisons are a very bloated, complex situation and I don't even know where to begin with that. Let alone the taxes. Instinctively I'm inclined to go with no.
Texas = no income tax. Love you Tejas. Speaking of I have been busting my ass on my credit and while filing my taxes this year I checked out my latest scores and I am up to 799.. which is good for to me at least.
I am a HUGE Dave Ramsey fan (that guy changed my life!! - and I attribute a huge portion of my success to his common sense practices)
before starting this new job...my credit score was 0 -- which would get me funny looks from coworkers...but I had more money than that guy...and that guy...and that guy combined
...I eventually got a credit card because I travel for work...and it was 1. such a hassle to FIND rental car companies that let you use a debit card...and 2. though I could cash flow it...I didnt like it
basically my company reimburses you in 2 wks after....I create expenses in wk 1...submit expenses in wk 2....and get a payment in wk 3.
Im on my first "long term" project and so...I was flying ($400 round trip - not reimbursed until the flight home)...getting a rental car ($500 for 2 wks)...declining the insurance because my company carries their own ($1000 deposit to do that)...and the "oh youre using a debit card" deposit ($1000)....checking into hotels ($1000 deposit)...then the actual bill for staying there
...and then all the deposits have a 10day turnaround
so essentially...I was floating the company something like $8k a month
I got the credit card and use it STRICTLY for work...and now Im floating them something like $1600...but since I take my payment and apply 100% every week...Im like -$1500 balance - lol
I COULD do the debit card thing...but the credit card is just cleaner
OT...I feel that prisons should be paid for by tax payers...its something that everyone society benefits from
however...I feel that the prison system needs an overhaul because I do not believe in the 90 year death row inmate nonsense or life w/o parole...no time off for good behavior either (instead you are conscripted into the military as cannon fodder or pharma industry for human trials)
some of these monsters should be put down mercilessly....like they did their victims
if you want to go the humane route...Im fine with that too
Im just not a fan of "society/my environment made me this way"
I know that prison is more complicated than that...but I do have some ideas about hot button issues
3 felony strikes = executed
misdemeanors as minors = charging the family STEEP monetary penalties (to get parents involved)
sexual child abuse = castration/neutered/spaded
child abuse = flogged
tax evasion sterf = publically flogged
I think solitary confinement is perfectly acceptable
also, I would LOVE to see some of the BS manufacturing jobs come back (like making Galaxy S7s) and having inmates HERE make them for slave wages -- I see that as a win/win....Samsung makes their wares with labor costs low...we dont pay importing/shipping/tariff costs...government gets to tax Samsung at a nice 5% rate etc....or have them picking produce for pennies on the dollar
they either do that...or STAY OUT OF PRISON
...but thats just me
It's amazing how all of this stuff feeds into each other.
If we stop the welfare state, promote families staying together, teach peaceful parenting then that will DIRECTLY reduce the amount of overall criminals as time goes on. Not only that, it would definitely allow for a change in how incarceration works in terms of actually being able to rehabilitate people.
Less single moms, less criminals.
Less abused kids, less criminals.
Single motherhood is the largest determiner of criminal behavior.
Separate names with a comma.